Life Before Birth
I’m pro choice. I think the baby should choose it’s destiny.
Life should be protected at every stage. There are rare shades of medical subjectivity, such as when the life of the mother is at stake – but just for the sake of regret, convenience or circumstance, abortion is never okay. A mother owns the life of a foetus no more at one second after conception than we do at 8.99 months.
All life is precious and to be fought for, at every stage.
Anyone who is still arguing does not recognise universal Truth or morality, but argues instead with rationalised, humanistic spin the socially acceptable standard of right & wrong: situational ethics: hedonism. Well Nazi Germany was a society that silenced the Church & redefined social tolerances. So it was with cannibalism in many cultures, paedophilia in ancient Sparta, and so on.
There is a Standard. One doesn’t get to agree or disagree with it. It’s universal Truth. It’s objective. It’s eternal. It doesn’t know if we agree or disagree, and doesn’t change with what we believe, or what the Hollywood media preach.
The concrete barrier on the highway doesn’t care or change it’s reality based on our perceptions or beliefs – but when you hit it, you better not be speeding.
The consequences of ignoring universal Truth are also at our peril. They’re indifferent to our subjective sense of morality or indignation. They are immutable and inescapable.
Gravity doesn’t care if you’re offended when the apple hits the ground. You let it go: it will fall.
All life is precious and to be fought for, at every stage.
Another Truth that needs to be expressed is that God doesn’t judge one mistake worse than any other, so nobody’s perfect. The point of Easter is that He paid the consequence of our mistakes, everyone’s. So just for accepting that gift there is complete forgiveness & restoration for everyone, no matter what.
Amy, “When’s the last time you scratched your arm? You’ve killed millions, if not billions of single living cells!! A single living cell in a womb is considered life, but we don’t know when a fetus gains human consciousness.. In my opinion, all living cells are meant to die at some point. When we fight too hard to keep some forms of life alive, and not others we throw the natural balance out and all sorts of serious problems arise. Poverty, over-population, disease, mass extinctions, destruction of natural habitats etc. Death is as necessary and important as life. I’m in no way supporting population control, but we have thrown the balance out a long time ago due to our fear of death. Now we suffer the consequences. Saving a baby from abortion is just postponing its death for a little longer… The only difference is that it will be aware of its suffering… Just a thought”
Dave, “A subjective, rationalised thought – if I may offer.
Who said consciousness was the qualifier of life? Can we than euthenise comatose patients?
Human life is of course far more precious than any other. No one who was forced to choose would save a random animal over a random human.
To create vacuum of morality in which we can rationalise wrong with flimsy, transparent arguments is to elevate our self above all else under the pretense it’s for a higher good, while actually promoting humanistic amorality.
The above rationalisation about the inevitability of death & the balance of life is not far removed from the rationalised horrors of eugenics by a different name.
THUS the need for recognition, acceptance & reliance on objective, universal & established morality & Truth.”
Amy, “?’Human life is OF COURSE far more precious than any other’? How dare you! Who are you to create a hierarchy of life?! I’m sorry but just because your MAN MADE religion says that your life is more important does not give you the right to claim that is fact. We are living organisms just like everything else, we are NOT superior, I would give up my life any day for an animal because most humans can fend pretty well for themselves, whereas every day species are becoming extinct due to our actions. And another thing, how the hell is that a rationalised thought? You’re grappling with the very subject that people have been trying to understand SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HUMANITY, so no… it is not rationalised, it can NEVER be rationalised, only an opinion.”
Dave, “So you know someone who’d choose other-than-human life over human life? Would you?
Just because I know/espouse Truth doesn’t mean it’s my subjective creation or biased opinion.
Religion is man’s effort to reach God, but Jesus is God’s effort to reach man. When religion echoes God it doesn’t invalidate Truth because a human effort echoed it. It remains objective fact. Your logic is sound, but your premise is flawed – with respect. 
The ongoing attempt to grapple with Truth does not neutralize the reality when some have a better grasp then others. That point was just flawed logic.
(I do appreciate the discussion if we can agree to not be personal or offended, & none intended ? )”
Amy, “Consciousness is the difference between when a human dies or a humans arm dies.. You don’t hold a funeral for a body part if the human it came from is still alive. Dead arm, dead body, both dead human cells that were once living but we only mourn the latter… Why do you think that is?? I’m not talking about consciousness in the sense of being awake, I’m talking about the awareness that realizes you’re alive.. And if you’re going to bring up euthanasia, then the question should be asked “Do we have the right to interfere with life that would have died if we did nothing, if the result of that interference does not actually improve the quality of life?” That’s playing God in my opinion, deciding who or what has the right to live or die.. Nature regulates that without us interfering… I could go on way too long about this subject, so I’ll move on since it’s slightly off topic… You have no right to claim that my argument is flimsy and transparent, it’s my opinion and I am entitled to it, just as you are to yours… I countered your opinion with my own, I did not say that yours was wrong… Although, morality and truth have NEVER been universally established. Just because you, personally, have settled on a particular belief and set of morals that a group of people also chose to believe, does not mean it is universal, or true for that matter. If I had to choose between saving an animal or a human, I would evaluate the situation and choose based on every piece of information available from my analysis, not on the bias that humans are the most important things in the universe. If you had to choose between saving a Numbat or a pedophile, which would you choose?”
Dave, “Interesting:
http://www.lifenews.com/
Amy, “That article just shows to me that human opinion is easily swayed when faced with standing up to the majority… 90% of humans will follow the crowd? lol I’ve really enjoyed this discussion by the way, it’s always great fun discussing difficult issues I’ll finish with one more thought… I believe that I know the truth too, but my idea of truth is obviously different from yours.. I think that as soon as we try to convey the truth into form (thought, language, books etc), it is filtered through our own opinions and experiences and therefore, will always be distorted. So as much as I like to think I know the truth, I never will, no human will ”
Scott, “Amy, fantastic…”
Dave, “The difference is I’m not advocating or conveying my perceptions. Ancient truths & wisdoms, at least thousands of years old, as previously said the foundation of the most successful and established societies/nations, the regret of the proudest cultures which abandoned them; these are not my navel-gazing creations or opinions so I am neither offended nor complimented if anyone responds negatively or positively.
You had a peculiar perception of that article, one obviously dismissive of the possibility that open minds can be changed – simply discredited because the numbers were a certain way in the audience.
You’re of course right about personal perspectives. That is why we must not be dismissive of the wisdoms of ages, ancient & recent, that stood the test of time, & consistently proved valuable – and there is none more widely & consistently applied than the Bible, across hundreds of cultures & centuries; it is the Standard & Foundation of the greatest societies in history, including Australia, New Zealand, USA & UK. Of course, where there are people (nobody’s perfect) these have also had corruptions and failings – where people have deviated from the Truth.
I reject your claim no human will ever know truth. It’s just not logical. Even accidentally, it’s obviously not impossible for someone to stumble upon the truth. You would have to believe Truth actively repelled being known to maintain that premise.
Far from fantastic, you completely voided your own assertion by contradicting yourself, “I think I know truth, but no human ever will”. Hard to appreciate a valid point there, sorry.
I too enjoy a non-personal, reasoned debate. Welcome any time! ?”
Melinda, “don’t call yourself “pro choice” and then say “abortion is never okay.” it’s not clever. if humans are so important, don’t they have the right to be wanted by their parents? and the right to choose what they want to do with their own body? if you can’t trust a woman to make decisions about her body, you can’t say you trust her to raise a child.”
Dave, “Thanks for joining the conversation
The myth perpetuated by people wanting to rationalise something that’s inherently wrong is that there is not a second person involved in the decision.
The woman’s not just deciding about her body, she’s deciding about someone else’s body in her body.
14 Weeks: The heart is beating, ten fingers and ten toes - and the "ideal" age for abortion.
It’s not the mother’s living body that is being ripped apart and left dismembered in a bucket.
How do you feel better about doing the wrong thing? You tell yourself you’re doing the right thing. You call something negative like terminating a life giving yourself options and making a choice, and you demonise anyone challenging the ethics of your decision, defending the choices and rights of the defenceless lives your trying to rationalise out of existence.
At what stage does a baby get a soul? Birth? 8 mths, 6 mths? When it’s heart starts beating? Human life is to be protected at every stage.
I know you’re not advocating murder of every post-born child who’s not wanted because they have a right to be wanted. The answer is obviously placement in families where they are wanted, which there are always more of than children needing. Just so it is with children who are pre-born. They are wanted, even needed, and there are always better options for them then the pro-woman’s choice which is also anti-child’s choice.
Why do we actually think calling moral regression “progressive” & anti-life “pro-choice” changes the nature and substance of what they really are. It is perpetuation of lying to ourselves via clever marketing and politically-correct fact-spinning that we create clever little labels to gain sympathy for agendas for doing wrong.
I called anti-abortion the real pro-choice, because people who cleverly call themselves pro-choice conveniently rationalise away the second life, heartbeat & soul involved in “their” choice.
I’m sorry for women who’ve been raped by strangers or even family, girls who are too young, women who have careers that are interrupted, reputations that are ruined, or are just in a really poor situation/circumstance that a child shouldn’t be part of. Really.
But the life of the child is more important than the above. Not that the above isn’t of great concern & deserves great consideration & empathy – just that human life at every stage is of utmost concern, empathy & protection.
So I believe there is no choice if the baby isn’t wanted; other than cherish & raise, or allow another family to.”
Melinda, “Equating abortion with murder is trivializing the pain of people who have known actual murder victims. Abortion is not murder and it’s not “inherently wrong”, its not a crime and people arent trying to “feel better about their choices”, i dont think having an abortion is exactly an easy choice for anyone, and it still happened before it was legalized, only women would die in the process of having unsafe abortions. And to say that something which isn’t alive yet is more valuable than a live woman… Would you kill your wife to protect an unborn child? That mindset is deeply deeply disturbing to me.”
Dave, “We strongly disagree. There is nothing I’ve said, however, that should lead you to think I said I’d kill my wife to protect an unborn child. To be clear, I wouldn’t.”
Melinda, “No that was a just a hypothetical, my point I was making was meant to be about illegal unsafe abortions
And also because of the implication that an unborn child is more valuable than a living human and her rights”
Dave, “Neither are more valuable — equal value and equal rights and equally alive. I understand we may never agree, that’s okay.”
Pro-Choice, First, I’d like to tell you that I truly appreciate your visntiig this site and taking the time to consider a view different than your own – that is something that many in today’s culture are reluctant to do, and I am very grateful for your willingness to engage in discussion. Although I do not believe WhyProLife.com is affiliated with any particular religious point of view, the questions you pose do hold merit. Personally, I actually am Christian and would be happy to explain what I believe. The first point you raise actually relates to a much broader question that we all find ourselves pondering at some point in our lives – “Why do bad things happen to good people?” and similarly,” Why would God allow these bad things to happen?” In order to gain an understanding of this of what initially may seem to be irreconcilable, you have decided that there must be a good reason why bad things happen. In this view, an abortion must have been in the divine plan and have a deeper meaning than we can see. However, I would like to offer you an alternative view, which is this: God is not responsible for the evil in this world, humanity is. The responsibility to end evil lies with us. There is a divine plan in this world. From the very beginning, God has possessed the ability to control all of his creation and knowledge of what all his creation will do. However, this does not mean that he will intervene and control all of what we do. If he would, then we would be nothing more than mere puppets and life would have very little purpose. What defines our lives the most is not what happens to us as much as how we choose to respond to whatever it is that happens to us – whatever circumstances we face. As long as we live on Earth, ours will always be an imperfect existence in which we will likely encounter some form of suffering or hardship on a daily basis. Bad things will happen. As a Christian, I feel it is my duty to be a force for good on this Earth, take an active role in trying to help others, and pray that I may one day be considered worthy to enter a realm that is perfect, heaven. While it has never been my approach to use yelling in arguing a point as a few others in this thread have (the volume at which a statement is made cannot be thought to bear impact on its legitimacy), I can understand the sense of urgency in their statements. I will try to respond point by point to your arguments to explain why. You mentioned that an unborn baby is not alive. The abortion industry used to be fairly effective in persuading people that this was indeed the case – to this day, they make every effort to refer to preborn babies as mere uterine contents, products of conception, blobs of tissue, and other similar terms. Instead of letting women know that abortion ends an innocent life, they try to describe it with euphemisms, such as “terminating a pregnancy.” However, the only problem with this is that the facts tell an entirely different story. For example, according to a 1985 Senate report, “Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being – a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.” I would actually have to agree with the statement you made, which is that rights do not apply to a person who is not alive. However, this argument is not applicable to the discussion of the preborn, because science actually shows that preborn children are very much alive. There is a great deal of additional evidence I could give you that the preborn/unborn baby is human and alive –a preborn’s heart can start beating between 18-21 days after conception, development of organs begins during the fifth week of development, and the head and spinal column begin to form just a few weeks after that. However, all of these developmental facts are really beside the point. While they make the preborn’s personhood more apparent, the indisputable truth is that all of these preborn babies are at stages in life that is every bit as valid as any other stages in life. They may not yet be able to use their voice or be educated in the ways of the world, but they are just as alive as anyone else in the world. Whether a life is still inside the womb, several years from having been inside the womb, or many years from having been inside the womb, the individual deserves to have his or her life protected at every stage. You mentioned that a mother is not able to abort a child if the baby is only a month or two from its delivery date. While I wish this were true, Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton actually allow a baby to be aborted at any point in the pregnancy, for any reason (or no reason). Approximately 98% of abortions may be categorized as convenience abortions, abortions due to rape are extremely rare, and (thanks to modern medicine) situations where a pregnancy must be ended to save the life of the mother are practically not existent – we have found ways to protect the mother’s well-being without endangering the life of the preborn baby. I believe you mentioned something along the lines of that abortion is ultimately the choice of the woman, because it is her body. In response to this, I would say that no one (neither men nor women) should have the ability to do whatever they want with their bodies. Please let me explain… One of the greatest minds in philosophy, J.S. Mill, published a book entitled On Liberty, in which he advocated several key principles for society. One of his key ideas is the harm principle, which holds that individuals may act as they wish, as long as these actions do not harm others. When they do, we must intervene and provide protection to whoever is the target of that harm. Also, because no one lives in isolation, even harm that is thought to be done exclusively to oneself often results in harm to others as well – immediate family members perhaps, but also the community, and we do have an obligation. This general philosophy might seem familiar; it underlies much of the legal framework we see in America today. We often hear the phrases “My Body, My Choice” and “Pro-Choice: the radical idea that women have control of their bodies” uttered by those who are in favor of abortion. However, what those who hold these signs don’t seem to be aware of is that the pro-life movement is not out to take away any of their rights, nor deprive them of any of their freedoms. All individuals, both men and women, have every right to exercise their freedom, but society always has an obligation to intervene when harm is being brought to another life. This is the case in all areas of society, not just abortion, and it holds true for men and women alike. Especially given the great damage that abortion does to women (let alone the unborn life), society has both a personal and public obligation to discourage abortion in whatever ways it can. This actually brings me to another argument you made – that an abortion is relatively painless for both the baby and mother and the mother can resume life as normal the very next day. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case for the mother or the preborn child being aborted. It has been found that a preborn baby is capable of feeling pain by as early as 8 weeks. Many abortion clinic employees have actually been shocked when they first see an ultrasound of an abortion procedure – they see babies doing everything in their power to move away from the abortion instruments, only to find nowhere escape. Despite the pro-abortion rhetoric, the reality is that abortion can be incredibly painful for the baby. As for the woman, her pain can come in a great variety of forms – immediate physical complications, long-term problems, and psychological/emotional trauma. The reason why these women suffer from these problems is not because they are stupid, but because the information regarding risks is suppressed, they are lied to about the facts regarding their pregnancy and the abortion procedure, and they are often pressured (nearly 2/3 of the time, according to surveys) into getting an abortion by others who do not necessarily have their best interests in mind. The list of painful consequences to abortion are far too numerous to mention here, but they include an increased risk of breast cancer, depression, an inability to have children, post-traumatic stress disorder, and various anxiety disorders to name a few. Many women also find themselves in deep emotional pain over their abortion for the rest of their lives. In fact, much of the core of the pro-life movement is post-abortive women who have learned firsthand of the hardship of abortion and have dedicated the rest of their lives to trying to prevent other women from making the same mistake. – Mike Y.